John Waters, A Most Filthy Legacy
On his 79th birthday, revisit John Waters’ wickedly sharp interview, in which the cult filmmaker discusses his views on parenting, PETA and why being outrageous never gets old.
Photography by Rory van Millingen
Fashion by Joseph Ecorchard
This is an excerpt of an article first published in Mastermind 14, November 2023. To read the full interview, purchase the issue here.
Reading him or meeting him, people find it hard to believe John Waters is 77 years old. Just like his impeccable, thin, black moustache, his wit is precise, and the once-underground director delivers zingers with the velocity of a young provocateur. Through films including Pink Flamingos, Cecil B. Demented and Female Trouble, Waters spawned a cinematic universe ripe with perversion, scatology, fetishism, violence and countless other absurdities beyond the realm of social decency.
Over the years, something happened to Waters that nevertheless left him deliciously unchanged: he became accepted and celebrated by mainstream culture. His early movies, released in the late ’60s and ’70s amid a whirlwind of offense and controversy, are now shown at film institutes all over the world, and Waters, who hasn’t directed a feature since A Dirty Shame in 2004, is currently writing his next film: an adaptation of his first novel Liarmouth, released to great acclaim in May 2022.
Unapologetic and deliriously funny, Liarmouth is pure Waters. Marsha – an asexual, pathological liar – embarks on a wild ride along America’s East Coast, pursued by her mother Adora, who works as a plastic surgeon for dogs, and her daughter, Poppy, a trampoline fanatic who has decided to spend her life jumping up and down. From Baltimore to Provincetown by way of Manhattan, Waters’s intimate and professional geography is well represented in the book, which extends his highly unhinged universe onto the page.
Since his first movie Mondo Trasho, in 1969, Waters has remained faithful to his fascination with drag queens, sexual behaviors deemed deviant by the majority, outcasts, weirdos and the boundaries imposed on most of us by society, all of which he manages to make fun of without actually offending anyone. If there is proof that cancel culture does not exist, Waters is it: instead of laughing at people, he always manages to laugh with them.
Is there a lot of you in Marsha, the main character in Liarmouth?
JW All my characters are me, but one thing I have in common with Marsha is that I hate instinct. I hate that we have to go to the bathroom; I hate that I don’t have any choice but to do it… I’m a control freak, and I didn’t think it up!
Like her, you also seem like a self-invented creature.
JW Yes… But she doesn’t think she’s self-invented at all. She just thinks she’s right, which makes her not open to anything, whereas I’m open to everything. So, in some ways, we’re opposites. But I like her because she’s so crazy and focused. And because she thinks she’s right, she wins morally.
Do you see yourself as a moralist?
JW Yes. The right people always win in my movies. The ones who lose are judgmental or don’t mind their own business. But the ones who win, even if they’re completely out of their mind, believe in themselves and are not wrong in what they think of their position. Also, they don’t wish each other badly – except when they’re attacked.
There is something very earnest in this world of yours.
JW I’m an optimist. I always was.
Do you lie a lot?
JW No. I only lie if, for instance, I see someone in a play, and I tell them they were great when they were not. Lying can be politeness.
Do you lie about yourself?
JW I do believe you have to have a personal life. If you don’t have a personal life, you don’t have a life. As a result, everyone thinks they know everything about me, but they don’t. All the boyfriends I ever had don’t want to be in the press. They don’t want to be famous, and that’s why I like them. But I’m not hiding anything.
What’s your type for a boyfriend?
JW Someone with a good sense of humor, who’s angry and doesn’t want to be famous.
Angry?
JW Yes. But as I said before, I’m old, and anger gets tedious past a certain age. Don’t bitch about your parents after you’re 30. I don’t care if you were kept locked in a box under their bed – you have to get over it!
Do you still date?
JW No, because I’m with one person, and I’m faithful. I don’t believe in open marriage. If you want something open, then don’t get married! That said, I’m not married, and I hate weddings. Gay or straight ones, I never had a good time at a wedding. They’re tedious, and you have to go to a stupid dance…
You have always been a provocateur. Do you agree that one of the most provocative things in our society today is being old?
JW I’m for gerontophilia – the sexual attraction to old people.
What do you think is your best quality as a novelist?
JW I don’t want to bore the reader. As a result, something happens in every single sentence, to the point that, as one critic said, it’s an exhausting read. I agree! But hopefully it’s also a page-turner that keeps the reader laughing.
What did you set out to do when you started working on Liarmouth?
JW Make myself laugh. And it worked!
How was it received in the U.S.?
JW I didn’t get one bad review, which I wouldn’t have predicted! This could’ve gone either way.
Is it because America has changed?
JW No, it’s because I’m not mean. And I love all my characters, even if they’re unlovable, and I’m asking you to love them, too.
Do you think it could be a sign that America is now so divided that only liberals read or write about your book?
JW I don’t think so. I have conservative friends. Whatever happened on the Internet happened to them, and they voted for Trump. I just try not to talk to them about that.
Do you have something against children?
JW No, kids like me! I would be a bad father – I’m too self-involved – but I get along great with my nieces and nephews. Kids come over to me in airports and say, “Pick me up!”
What is your view on parenting?
JW All parents have to do is make their kids feel safe. It’s what mine did for me. Even though they were threatened by what I was, they loved me.
What about pets? Reading the book, I was surprised you weren’t chased down by PETA.
JW No I’m friends with someone who works at PETA! I like their radicalism, and I think they’re technically right. When I see people dressing their dogs in costume, I think the dogs should bite them. And when people ask me if I have pets, I say, “No, I’m not lonely!” In this book, the dogs are imprisoned by their owners; they want to be running in packs biting people. I’m an animal-lover. I do eat meat, and I agree that it may be unsophisticated to eat dead animals, but it’s too late for me to stop.
Baltimore is a main character in almost everything you’ve ever done. What do you like the most about this city?
JW My friends there, my oldest friends, are in a whole different world. And old friends are so important. Also, people there inspire me. They have a sense of humor about the city. They’re not impressed by a lot of things that other people are impressed by, but they’re also willing to try new things, and they’re not judgmental. I have a friend who got out of jail – he was a murderer – and went back to the same neighborhood he used to live in. “They all have their own heartbreaks,” is what he told me. Each house has its own horror story. They can’t judge anybody because they all have some tragedy somewhere.
But the rest of the country judges Baltimore very harshly.
JW When Trump came to Baltimore and called it a “rodent-infested mess,” I was on every news show in America the next day! A lot of people think that we’re the murder capital of America, but we’re not! We’re number three. But the sad part about Baltimore is that it’s poor people killing poor people. There’s no crime in my neighborhood, but everybody has a gun.
Do you?
JW No, I’d shoot myself trying to load it if I had one! But I did shoot a gun once, like 40 years ago. A biker I knew took me to the woods to shoot.
Have you always said yes to any adventure?
JW No, but I look for it.
Provincetown is another landmark of your world. How much has it changed since you first started going there in the ’60s?
JW It hasn’t. People say it’s ridiculously expensive, but it always was! It’s a resort and a gay fishing village. It’s also very remote, and it’s a town of eccentrics – always has been.
What sort of life do you lead when you’re there?
JW Same as everywhere. I wake up at six, read the newspapers, write from eight until 11:30, and, in the afternoon, I go to the office to run my business. The only difference in Provincetown is I go to the beach for one hour at lunchtime.
When you travel across America for your one-man show, This Filthy World, what strikes you about your country?
JW The most terrible way they dress. Slobs, dirty… I have little cards I give out that say, “Nice outfit.” I left it on someone’s seat once, but you have to wait until they go to the bathroom and never look back again because you’ll get punched. I know the French really make fun of Americans for wearing shorts, and they’re right! It was always bad, but Covid really made it worse. I don’t want to be sitting on the plane next to your Covid legs and your urinary tract infection, impetigo and pink eye! It’s like nude beaches: the ones that are nude are always the ones you wish weren’t! I’m glad they’re comfortable with their bodies, just not if I’m in the middle seat.
Do you think America is on a progressive path?
JW Things are certainly better for gay people. And Black Lives Matter worked. Women, too, have it better. People have more of a voice today, and dumb people at least watch what they say.
What family do you belong to today?
JW Old friends are what lasts. I have a circle of very close friends – I worked hard at keeping them.